What a joke..

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Originally Posted by R13

I'd have to believe something existed before I could fear it. Take out heaven/hell, then we'd see how many believers there would be, I'd guess hardly any.

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Thats like saying, take out science and see how many "believers" there are. You cant take out the main component of something and expect it to be the same.

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Originally Posted by R13

Our ancestor isn't an ape, we shared a common ancestor 6 million years ago, the lineages split and later became apes and then hominids. We aren't the offspring of apes and didn't evolve from them.

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An anscestor is one you are decended from. ie, I decend from my grandfather. My cousins and I have a common anscestor in my grandfather...did we not originate from the same place? That makes no sense.


Definition of anscestor
1. distant relation somebody is descended from: somebody from whom somebody else is directly descended, especially somebody more distant than a grandparent
2. forerunner: a predecessor of somebody, e.g. in the development of an art form
3. biology earlier species: an animal or plant from which a species has evolved
4. earlier model: a device that was an earlier form of a modern invention or was used as a basis for developing it

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Originally Posted by R13

Sure, in a couple of million years, there's a slither of a chance that apes could evolve into a human-like species(which doesn't mean anything like the planet of the apes concept). The species at the end of those lineages(hominids and now apes) are a result of a very, very specific combination of selection pressures and genetic mutations over millions and millions of years. This same combination is extremely unlikely to ever happen again.

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And what specific pressures would cause an organism to evolve into intelligent beings capable of dreams, and aspirations? What environmental pressure caused hominids to evolve into a creature that travels into space, paints works of art...etc..

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Originally Posted by Shooter

Thats like saying, take out science and see how many "believers" there are. You cant take out the main component of something and expect it to be the same.

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Heaven/hell isn't the main component, it's God, so no it's not like taking science out...doesn't even make sense really. It's supposed to be about loving him because it's right, I said take out the reward system with loving God and see how many real believers there would be. Hell, Christianity would even exist.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

An anscestor is one you are decended from. ie, I decend from my grandfather. My cousins and I have a common anscestor in my grandfather...did we not originate from the same place? That makes no sense.

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Uh, yeah you did? What are you talking about? You and your cousin are the ape and hominid, the grandfather is the common ancestor...now, did you originate from an ape? No, you didn't.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

And what specific pressures would cause an organism to evolve into intelligent beings capable of dreams, and aspirations? What environmental pressure caused hominids to evolve into a creature that travels into space, paints works of art...etc..

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Do you mean the development of the brain over millions of years?






Humans have been around what, 200,000 years? Christianity has been around 2,000 years, Judaism 3,000...why would I think that it's the actual God? People were worshiping Gods LONNNNNNNG before Christianity was ever created, hell the story of Jesus was passed around centuries before he was actually here with several other gods it's not even original , this has nothing to do with evolution...it's just reality. A fad just like I said, the most popular religions are the newest, there's a reason for that. Common sense things people realize when they take a step back and look at the facts.

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Originally Posted by R13

the most popular religions are the newest, there's a reason for that. Common sense things people realize when they take a step back and look at the facts.

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Like Global warming? "Release the 2nd chakra !!!" LOL

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Originally Posted by R13

I said take out the reward system with loving God and see how many real believers there would be. Hell, Christianity would even exist.

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Take the reward/punishment system away from parents, society...see how long that works too. There might not be as many church goers, but still believers. If my parents had never rewarded me...or punished me....you know, taught me the way, then i probably wouldnt have anything to do with them either.

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Originally Posted by R13

Uh, yeah you did? What are you talking about? You and your cousin are the ape and hominid, the grandfather is the common ancestor...now, did you originate from an ape? No, you didn't.

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Yes, you did. If your anscestor is ape...then you have ape blood in you. Plain and simple. What did the hominids evolve from?

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Originally Posted by R13

Do you mean the development of the brain over millions of years?

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Yes exactly...what environmental pressures would cause the human brain to develop into an intelligent being capable of the dreams and aspirations. The ability to want, instead of need..... None.

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Originally Posted by R13

Humans have been around what, 200,000 years? Christianity has been around 2,000 years, Judaism 3,000...why would I think that it's the actual God? People were worshiping Gods LONNNNNNNG before Christianity was ever created, hell the story of Jesus was passed around centuries before he was actually here with several other gods it's not even original , this has nothing to do with evolution...it's just reality. A fad just like I said, the most popular religions are the newest, there's a reason for that. Common sense things people realize when they take a step back and look at the facts.

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You just said it yourself, People have been worshipping Gods LOOOONG before Christ. So Religion, and the belief in a higher power has been around from the beginning. Wonder why that is....because when people step back and look at the facts, they use common sense to see that only intelligent design could have brought us to where we are today.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

Take the reward/punishment system away from parents, society...see how long that works too. There might not be as many church goers, but still believers. If my parents had never rewarded me...or punished me....you know, taught me the way, then i probably wouldnt have anything to do with them either.

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Lol nice deflection. Terrible comparison, you don't love your parents because of a punishment system, they're still your parents and you'd still love them. Besides, parent's aren't a "belief", apples and oranges and still doesn't make sense. If there was no heaven or hell, you probably wouldn't have a clue what Christianity is, because it would have probably died out a long time ago with possibly a handful of "believers" if any today. You can't really spout off against others about being "true believers" and this/that, since the reason you believe is because you're covering your own ass.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

Yes, you did. If your anscestor is ape...then you have ape blood in you. Plain and simple. What did the hominids evolve from?

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WTF? This isn't hard, we didn't evolve from the apes. The ape is the cousin, the grandfather is the common ancestor, you are the hominid. We evolved BESIDE the ape, not from it. There was the common ancestor, it split off into two lineages, us and the ape, we didn't come from the ape. Yes, there is a relation between us and primates, we share what 97% of our DNA with chimps? That's not by accident.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

Yes exactly...what environmental pressures would cause the human brain to develop into an intelligent being capable of the dreams and aspirations. The ability to want, instead of need..... None.

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Animals do things they want all the time, just because they don't have the ability to go buy a tv, doesn't mean they do everything out of necessity..that's ridiculous, they obviously do. If that's your proof that there's a God, then keep going with that god of the gaps reasoning, fine. Like I said, if you want to believe it was ID(which is at least acknowledging evolution did occur, even though you've tried to argue otherwise) then by all means do so - just keep it out of our schools and don't try to pass it off as real science. At least it's a step in the more logical direction instead of the silly adam/eve notion.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

You just said it yourself, People have been worshipping Gods LOOOONG before Christ. So Religion, and the belief in a higher power has been around from the beginning. Wonder why that is....because when people step back and look at the facts, they use common sense to see that only intelligent design could have brought us to where we are today.

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LOL I like that deflection too. I'm agnostic for a reason, I'm open to the idea that there could be a God, but I'm pretty positive it isn't Christianity(or any popular religion of today). You actually think people just finally got it right after 198,000 years? As a human, we don't like not having answers, so we try to assert why this and that happened...i.e. inserting God. In the beginning, it was mostly paganism anyway for a very long time. Christianity is borrowed from other religions before it, that's what all religions are, borrowed from the other. It's just a updated version of the one before it.

Again, why in world would I think that the Christian God is the God? It has no proof, it's borrowed from other religions before it and it's basically new. If there is a God, wouldn't you think it was one of the original ones people believed in? Of course, that only makes sense. Why did God just show up after all of those tens of thousands of years? Were people just going to hell before that? Just wondering around lost? Why do you think they try to claim were 5,000 years old or so? Because when you really look at it, you see how impossible things are and how full of holes the stories are.

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Originally Posted by R13

Lol nice deflection. Terrible comparison, you don't love your parents because of a punishment system, they're still your parents and you'd still love them. Besides, parent's aren't a "belief", apples and oranges and still doesn't make sense. If there was no heaven or hell, you probably wouldn't have a clue what Christianity is, because it would have probably died out a long time ago with possibly a handful of "believers" if any today. You can't really spout off against others about being "true believers" and this/that, since the reason you believe is because you're covering your own ass.

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You are sadly mistaken in the reasoning behind my belief. It has nothing to do with going to hell, or covering my ass, as you put it. And its not apples and oranges...God is the father of all. We love him because he leads us down the right path. Heaven and hell are just the opposite ends of those paths.

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Originally Posted by R13

WTF? This isn't hard, we didn't evolve from the apes. The ape is the cousin, the grandfather is the common ancestor, you are the hominid. We evolved BESIDE the ape, not from it. There was the common ancestor, it split off into two lineages, us and the ape, we didn't come from the ape. Yes, there is a relation between us and primates, we share what 97% of our DNA with chimps? That's not by accident.

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Talk about deflection...i'll ask again...what did the hominids evolve from, since humans evolved from hominids? If my mother and father are both ape, and i am hominid...did i not evolve from ape?

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Originally Posted by R13

Animals do things they want all the time, just because they don't have the ability to go buy a tv, doesn't mean they do everything out of necessity..that's ridiculous, they obviously do. If that's your proof that there's a God, then keep going with that god of the gaps reasoning, fine. Like I said, if you want to believe it was ID(which is at least acknowledging evolution did occur, even though you've tried to argue otherwise) then by all means do so - just keep it out of our schools and don't try to pass it off as real science. At least it's a step in the more logical direction instead of the silly adam/eve notion.

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First off, i never argued evolution didn't occur. I said right from the beginning that religion and science can live side by side. My argument is that if evolution occurred, then intelligent design had to play a role. You can call my argument a "god of the gaps" all you want...but if you sit back and take a look, evolutionist belief is filling the gaps as well. Since you have no belief in God, it MUST have happened that way. You dig up a thousands of years old "hominid", and just say...this is where man came from because we are similar. Evolution has NEVER been witnessed. If its in school, it should be taught as a hypothesis, unable to be proven or disproven.
Animals do things out of necessity, or because theyve been trained to do things. Only humans have the ability to have dreams and aspire for new heights.
What silly Adam/Eve notion? Did i say once that adam and eve populated the Earth? It doesnt even say that in the Bible. If you read it, it clearly says that Cain, son of Adam went into the land of nod...and took a wife.

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Originally Posted by R13

LOL I like that deflection too. I'm agnostic for a reason, I'm open to the idea that there could be a God, but I'm pretty positive it isn't Christianity(or any popular religion of today). You actually think people just finally got it right after 198,000 years? As a human, we don't like not having answers, so we try to assert why this and that happened...i.e. inserting God. In the beginning, it was mostly paganism anyway for a very long time. Christianity is borrowed from other religions before it, that's what all religions are, borrowed from the other. It's just a updated version of the one before it.

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And i can say the same about you...since you don't believe in Christianity(or any popular religion of today)....you insert evolution.

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Originally Posted by R13

Again, why in world would I think that the Christian God is the God? It has no proof, it's borrowed from other religions before it and it's basically new. If there is a God, wouldn't you think it was one of the original ones people believed in? Of course, that only makes sense. Why did God just show up after all of those tens of thousands of years? Were people just going to hell before that? Just wondering around lost? Why do you think they try to claim were 5,000 years old or so? Because when you really look at it, you see how impossible things are and how full of holes the stories are.

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Again..I've never tried to get you to believe in the Christian God. In fact, the God of 200,000 years ago, is that same God. I've only tried to get you to admit that evolution without ID is not a proven fact. When did I or anyone else say that God only showed up after tens of thousands of years? He is the Alpha and Omega...the beginning and end. People 200,000 years ago still had God. I can not answer you on why he sent his Son Jesus Christ only 2000 years ago, only that it was his will.

And again, I've never once said we were only 5000 years old.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

You are sadly mistaken in the reasoning behind my belief. It has nothing to do with going to hell, or covering my ass, as you put it. And its not apples and oranges...God is the father of all. We love him because he leads us down the right path. Heaven and hell are just the opposite ends of those paths.

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If heaven/hell was still taken out or was never there, I doubt very seriously really any Christians would be so crazy about God. Sorry, not believing it, I don't think you really believe that there would even be a fraction of Christians there are today if that was the case. Comes down to what I've said many times, fear, fear of not knowing what happens to you when you die...so people cover their bases with the religion of their choice while they're here.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

Talk about deflection...i'll ask again...what did the hominids evolve from, since humans evolved from hominids? If my mother and father are both ape, and i am hominid...did i not evolve from ape?

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It's been answered several times, you just aren't getting it, I don't know how much simpler it can be put. They evolved from the common ancestor, that ancestor split off into 2 lineages. Jesus, really how are you not getting this? Even using your previous example with you, a cousin and grandfather. The grandfather is the common ancestor, your cousin is the ape and you are the hominid..now, how does that mean you came from apes? Did you come from your cousin? No. Wow, if you really can't get that and really think evolution claims we came from apes, then it's just a matter of ignorance, sorry it just isn't that hard to get.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

First off, i never argued evolution didn't occur. I said right from the beginning that religion and science can live side by side. My argument is that if evolution occurred, then intelligent design had to play a role. You can call my argument a "god of the gaps" all you want...but if you sit back and take a look, evolutionist belief is filling the gaps as well. Since you have no belief in God, it MUST have happened that way. You dig up a thousands of years old "hominid", and just say...this is where man came from because we are similar. Evolution has NEVER been witnessed. If its in school, it should be taught as a hypothesis, unable to be proven or disproven.
Animals do things out of necessity, or because theyve been trained to do things. Only humans have the ability to have dreams and aspire for new heights.
What silly Adam/Eve notion? Did i say once that adam and eve populated the Earth? It doesnt even say that in the Bible. If you read it, it clearly says that Cain, son of Adam went into the land of nod...and took a wife.

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No, you just have argued basic, simple points of evolution in an attempt to debunk it. And yes, you can argue that ID did, doesn't mean it has any evidence for it...it has zero. How can evolutionist do that? You're not getting that evolution isn't a belief, it stands as fact, whether someone is in denial about it or not doesn't debunk it. I've also accepted evolution like any logical person, whether it was when I was a Christian or now, so it isn't now that "it must have happened"...it did. And wrong, evolution has most certainly been witnessed, on smaller scales than something like a human...but yes, it's been observed, the fossil records show it and it will continue to happen. Because it's multi-billion year process and you can't observe that in a lab...doesn't mean it didn't happen. And it's been proven, you're just in denial about it, are you seriously still arguing the "theory" position? LMAO, wow. It's accepted as fact, it's not just a "hypothesis", there's not missing link and theory is the highest title in science...that's been explained, you just ignored it or still argue otherwise. I didn't say "you" did, I was talking about those who do believe that and that have for thousands of years. And okay, still didn't happen that way.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

And i can say the same about you...since you don't believe in Christianity(or any popular religion of today)....you insert evolution.

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Go ahead, doesn't mean it makes sense. You have this silly notion that evolution has anything to do with non-believers, it doesn't, not one bit. It's not some atheist movement or anything of the sort, it's science, just because it debunks the stories in the bible...is not it's problem.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

Again..I've never tried to get you to believe in the Christian God. In fact, the God of 200,000 years ago, is that same God. I've only tried to get you to admit that evolution without ID is not a proven fact. When did I or anyone else say that God only showed up after tens of thousands of years? He is the Alpha and Omega...the beginning and end. People 200,000 years ago still had God. I can not answer you on why he sent his Son Jesus Christ only 2000 years ago, only that it was his will.

And again, I've never once said we were only 5000 years old.

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I'm not asking you to, I just asking the questions because I know there's no explanation from a Christian viewpoint to explain it...one of those huge holes in the argument of theirs. You have no explanation as to why there is no account of Christianity(which I'm including Judaism because that's where it comes from) beyond 3,000 years ago, but yet humans have been here for 200,000 years. I would have to assume all of those people before 3,000 years ago went to hell, would that not be correct? How about the fact that I can give you examples of "gods" that were here long before Jesus, yet have the same exact story as he did.

And yes, you've tried to get me to "admit that", but I've not lied and said that it was so. Because it is proven fact, maybe not to deniers, but overwhelmingly it is in the scientific community.

Soon we will be spliiting and one will become a robot, the other a cross between turkey and beagle.

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Originally Posted by R13

If heaven/hell was still taken out or was never there, I doubt very seriously really any Christians would be so crazy about God. Sorry, not believing it, I don't think you really believe that there would even be a fraction of Christians there are today if that was the case. Comes down to what I've said many times, fear, fear of not knowing what happens to you when you die...so people cover their bases with the religion of their choice while they're here.

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Again, if you think that im afraid of death, then you are sorely mistaken. I have my own reasons for my belief in God, that have nothing to do with fear, or heaven/hell.

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Originally Posted by R13

They evolved from the common ancestor, that ancestor split off into 2 lineages.

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So from your previous posts, you said the common anscestor was ape. Here you say we EVOLVED from this common anscestor. Earlier you said a common anscestor is not evolved from. Make up your mind. And still you havent answered the simple question...what species evolved into this common anscestor?

Answer me this...Where did the very first species come from? Oh yeah the big bang - an infinitely small, infinitely hot, infinetely dense...something..or nothing..a "singularity" that expanded suddenly creating the universe making life possible. But where did this singularity come from?

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Originally Posted by R13

No, you just have argued basic, simple points of evolution in an attempt to debunk it. And yes, you can argue that ID did, doesn't mean it has any evidence for it...it has zero. How can evolutionist do that? You're not getting that evolution isn't a belief, it stands as fact, whether someone is in denial about it or not doesn't debunk it. I've also accepted evolution like any logical person, whether it was when I was a Christian or now, so it isn't now that "it must have happened"...it did. And wrong, evolution has most certainly been witnessed, on smaller scales than something like a human...but yes, it's been observed, the fossil records show it and it will continue to happen. Because it's multi-billion year process and you can't observe that in a lab...doesn't mean it didn't happen. And it's been proven, you're just in denial about it, are you seriously still arguing the "theory" position? LMAO, wow. It's accepted as fact, it's not just a "hypothesis", there's not missing link and theory is the highest title in science...that's been explained, you just ignored it or still argue otherwise. I didn't say "you" did, I was talking about those who do believe that and that have for thousands of years. And okay, still didn't happen that way.

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Evolution cannot be repeated, observed or measured...the three elements of the scientific method...and yet, its fact? Why is this evolution exempt from these?
Just because there is a fossil record of a humanoid thousands of years ago doesnt mean it evolved into man. It just means there was a creature similar to us at that time.

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Originally Posted by R13

Go ahead, doesn't mean it makes sense. You have this silly notion that evolution has anything to do with non-believers, it doesn't, not one bit. It's not some atheist movement or anything of the sort, it's science, just because it debunks the stories in the bible...is not it's problem.

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It doesn't debunk anything. Like i said, they can go along side one another.

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Originally Posted by R13

I'm not asking you to, I just asking the questions because I know there's no explanation from a Christian viewpoint to explain it...one of those huge holes in the argument of theirs. You have no explanation as to why there is no account of Christianity(which I'm including Judaism because that's where it comes from) beyond 3,000 years ago, but yet humans have been here for 200,000 years. I would have to assume all of those people before 3,000 years ago went to hell, would that not be correct? How about the fact that I can give you examples of "gods" that were here long before Jesus, yet have the same exact story as he did.

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Ive just told you, God was there from the beginning. Whether you call it a Christian God...or a God that was praised 200,000 years ago...its still the same one. Christianity is religion that prays to the same God. The methods and practices may be different, but still same God. Are you not getting that?

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Originally Posted by Shooter

Again, if you think that im afraid of death, then you are sorely mistaken. I have my own reasons for my belief in God, that have nothing to do with fear, or heaven/hell.

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Good for you, sure, you can be the exception. Wasn't even referring to you personally, I said human fear of the unknown after death. Not what list of shooters fears, don't really care. My opinions are towards Christians in general.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

So from your previous posts, you said the common anscestor was ape. Here you say we EVOLVED from this common anscestor. Earlier you said a common anscestor is not evolved from. Make up your mind. And still you havent answered the simple question...what species evolved into this common anscestor?

Answer me this...Where did the very first species come from? Oh yeah the big bang - an infinitely small, infinitely hot, infinetely dense...something..or nothing..a "singularity" that expanded suddenly creating the universe making life possible. But where did this singularity come from?

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Go ahead and post these quotes then. I have repeated the same damn thing over and over again, never once saying we ever evolved from an ape. Go look at every post, I've said the same exact thing, that we shared the common ancestor with apes but we never came from there. I've made up my mind since post one, just because you have reading comprehension issue isn't my problem. Never said that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominini


You do know that has nothing to do with evolution, right? It's called Abiogenesis. And remember this?
Prokaryote - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Ever heard of the Cambrian explosion also?
Cambrian explosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You can keep asking the same things over, but my advice still stands, read a little. Your views on evolution are so far off, it isn't even funny. Just going to post links to help you a little from now on, they'll explain it much better than I ever could, yet I think you'll either somehow not get it or just deny it.

Here's just the entire time-line for future reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution

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Originally Posted by Shooter

Evolution cannot be repeated, observed or measured...the three elements of the scientific method...and yet, its fact? Why is this evolution exempt from these?
Just because there is a fossil record of a humanoid thousands of years ago doesnt mean it evolved into man. It just means there was a creature similar to us at that time.

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And you're full of shit if you actually believe that, you're dead wrong on all accounts. It can and has been observed, I just said that it has been observed on smaller scales, you just ignored it. You do realize that a something has to go through thousands of rigorous experiments(using scientific method) before it can be considered a scientific theory? It's been explained to you, go look it up, look anything I've said up...you keep on clinging to that "just a theory" bull and all of your other ideas about evolution that have been corrected though.

When you put fossil records together over millions of years, using DNA evidence, yes it absolutely means we evolved. You say dumb things like that, then say "I never said evolution never happened", you aren't fooling anyone.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

It doesn't debunk anything. Like i said, they can go along side one another.

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If that makes people feel better, sure. They don't go hand in hand, one is supported by mountains of scientific evidence and the other is strictly belief. That notion has tried to get something like ID put along side science in our schools.

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Originally Posted by Shooter

Ive just told you, God was there from the beginning. Whether you call it a Christian God...or a God that was praised 200,000 years ago...its still the same one. Christianity is religion that prays to the same God. The methods and practices may be different, but still same God. Are you not getting that?

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It's not the same God, not at all, the religions of today aren't even the same God. I know that's your way of trying to get out of the questions, but it's definitely not true, you know it's not either. If it were, then shouldn't Muslims, Hindu's and every other follower of every religion be going to heaven? I mean since the method doesn't really count? See, it doesn't really work like that. How many times have we heard that the acceptance of Christ and his father are the only key to heaven? With that belief, you can't sit here and say it's the same God then. It doesn't work both ways, it's either one way of the other. Nice try, but that deflection just backfired on you big time.